Pete's response to (some of) the feedback

Hi all and ישר כח to everyone for the feedback and comments.

Although it would be fitting to respond in לשון הקודש my experience with the Hebrew keyboard makes it impractical - my apologies to the קהל. (Thanks, אבא, for setting the precedent.)

As stated in my original post, my intention was (in part) to promote an awareness of the issues at hand, and – hopefully - evoke enough interest that people will study the סוגיות ofארץ ישראל and גאולה, and the relationship that exists between the two. Hopefully, the reaction of the family (thus far) indicates some degree of success in this respect.

Undoubtedly, every person is obligated to strive for אמת and actively seek to fulfil רצון ד' - irrespective of religious background and / or ‘political’ affiliation. In our unique times, our quest for spiritual enlightenment must surely include a closer look at the momentous events of the previous 2 centuries; in particular, the return of עם ישראל to its land andהקמת מדינת ישראל. If nothing else, it is my hope that these discussions spur us to seek greater clarity and אמונה within these סוגיות.

In this post, I will attempt to address some of the comments and reactions thus far. This will most probably be my last comment on the topic (for the time being).

יה'ר שנזכה לכוון לרצון ד', ושנזכה במהרה לגאולה שלמה, אמן.

To begin, I will summarize the arguments presented in my original post. Responses to comments will be addressed in the foot notes.

In order for us to formulate a response to הקמת מדינת ישראל we need to look at the overall historical context in which the events occurred i.e. we need address the general question of אתחלתא דגאולה. If מדינת ישראל was established within a general historical context of אתחלתא דגאולה, our attitude towards the State must perforce take this general context into account. [1]

If we examine the attitudes of the גדולי ישראל of previous generations (prior to the establishment of the State), we find 3 general categories:

§ A minority that were unequivocally in favour of the new ישוב and interpreted the events as the unfolding of the גאולה (in spite of the secularist involvement)
§ A minority were that unequivocally against the new ישוב (some of which termed the unfolding events as מעשה שטן )
§ A silent majority that remained equivocal – unwilling to proclaim open support (because of the general anti-Torah sentiment amongst the secularists), yet not willing to dismiss the possibility that the events were a precursor of the גאולה.

The above summary does not show any overwhelming opinion amongst theגדולי ישראל in favour of the new ישוב. However, the point being made is that הראי'ה קוק זצוק'ל was not the first to speak of the גאולה, nor was he a דעת יחיד. There is a common misconception that virtually all the גדולי ישראל were unequivocally against the Zionist movement. Before forming our own opinion, we need to be aware of the accurate historical facts. We should also understand that the picture of גאולה emerges from some very prominent גדולי ישראל – a number of whom preceded הראי'ה קוק. (A more detailed discussion of the various opinions is beyond the scope of this forum.)

Amongst the גדולי ישראל of previous generations that saw the new ישוב as a clear indication of גאולה were ר' אליהו גוטמכר and ר' יהושע מקוטנא (refer to my previous post for specific details). [2]

There are numerous פסוקים in נביא that predict the advent of גלות and the future גאולה. These פסוקים state clearly that גלות equates to ארץ ישראל lying barren and without her people; conversely, גאולה entails קבוץ גלויות and a revival of the agriculture in ארץ ישראל. The גמרא in סנהדרין also confirms this understanding of the פסוקים (refer to my previous post).

Based on numerous פסוקים in נביא and the גמרא in סנהדרין, it seems clear that we are currently witnessing the unfolding of the גאולה. Amongst the אחרונים who affirmed this understanding of events were ר' אליהו גוטמכר and ר' יהושע מקוטנא.

It follows, then, that הקמת מדינת ישראל is a turning point within the general context of אתחלתא דגאולה.


Foot notes / responses to (some of the) comments

[1] מיכאל – you seem to accept that in terms of קבוץ גלויות and agricultural revival, we are currently experiencing אתחלתא דגאולה (at the very least according to ר' אליהו גוטמכר and ר' יהושע מקוטנא). Inter alia, you take contention with the following points:

§ You contend that according to the sources cited, only Jewish settlement in ארץ ישראל indicates גאולה; Jewish dominion in ארץ ישראל (i.e. the state of Israel) – in your view - has no bearing on this general process of גאולה.
§ You contend that Jewish dominion in ארץ ישראל has no significance if the governing body does not run according to הלכה.
§ As an aside, you point out that quoting רב צבי יהודה קוק within this discussion is somewhat irrelevant, seeing as he stands as a single דעה on the one extreme of the spectrum.
§ You submit that since we would expect the land to vomit out the non-observant Jews – but this has not occurred – we can only conclude that the events are beyond our understanding and constitute a form of ‘הסתר הפנים’.

Allow me to briefly respond:

§ The obvious goal of קבוץ גלויות and agricultural revival is the ultimate dominion of עם ישראל in ארץ ישראל – i.e. the return of עם ישראל as a nation upon its land. Surely this point is self evident?
§ I submit that Jewish sovereignty in ארץ ישראל is meaningful – irrespective of the flaws within the government body. Although there is no direct precedent for our unique times, we do find examples of wicked kings that ruled עם ישראל during both בתי מקדש. Even though these kings rebelled against Hashem, their rebellion did not constitute a state of גלות for עם ישראל. Of course, we still have a long way to go; however, to paraphrase אבא– we need too distinguish between the concept of הקמת מדינת ישראל and the people in power.
§ Actually – I went to great pains not to quote the opinions of either הראי'ה קוק or רב צבי יהודה - I’m surprised that you missed that fact. The only context in which I referred to רב צבי יהודה was to mention that he lists in detail those גדולי ישראל that supported ‘Zionism’.
§ Your assertion that הקמת המדינה is an expression of ‘הסתר הפנים’ is essentially a statement of opinion that can hardly be ‘proven’. We certainly do live in times of ‘הסתר הפנים’ – but this does not negate an understanding that הקמת המדינה is a milestone in the process of גאולה.

[2] אבא (and חיים) raised the point that since the establishment of the state, the overwhelming majority of גדולי ישראל have refrained from expressing any form of celebration for הקמת המדינה. This is particularly true of the גדולי ישראל within the ‘mainstream’ חרדי community.

This is a very pertinent remark and the point is well made. That said, several observations should still be made:

§ In light of all the מקורות that point towards our era as the unfolding of the גאולה, it behoves us to gain a better understanding of this topic. In other words, exactly how did these גדולי ישראל relate to the historical events of the past 2 centuries? אבא – I believe you make this point yourself at the end of your post.
§ At the very least, we need to respect the opinion of other G-d fearing communities that do commemorate the נס. We can argue with a position and yet still acknowledge that there is another דעה. (חיים – I am not referring to those communities that are generally lax in מצווה observance. Those communities hardly represent דעת תורה.)
§ On a more personal note: during the short time that I learned at ישיבת מיר, I attempted to gain an understanding of how the חרדי community relates to the קבוץ גלויות and בנין in ארץ ישראל that we have been זוכה to see. Unfortunately, the impression that I gained is that the חרדי community is virtually indifferent. The sole focus of the community is overall מצווה observance and תורה study – anything more philosophical appears outside of the scope of most people. This might give us some indicator of how the above mentioned גדולי ישראל approached the topic: seemingly, they focused on fostering מצווה observance and תורה study, and chose not to respond to the events.

Anyway, I think I’ll have to stop here – my apologies for not completing the job (again!). There simply isn’t time to respond to each individual comment, and I’m sure that most people are tired of wading through my long winded comments (if they even got this far!). In any case, I think that Dassie is going to ‘kill me’ if I spend any more time on the BLOG!?

Just one or two last remarks (I promise!): חיים – you raised a very pertinent question: do we have rabbinical authority to institute a national חג – especially if it falls during the ספירה? I don’t have any conclusive answers, but perhaps we can pursue this question further at a later date. You also raised another important point - instead of philosophising from חוץ לארץ, ‘put your money where your mouth is’ and come to Israel! Thanks for the דברי מוסר – hopefully we’ll all join you soon!

Last but not least I would like once again to wish תהילה a happy birthday – without your birthday none of this would have been possible…